And again, O Subhūti, if a son or a daughter of a good family were to take as many worlds as there are grains of earth-dust in this sphere of a million millions of worlds, and reduce them to such fine dust as can be made with immeasurable strength, like what is called a mass of the smallest atoms, do you think, O Subhūti, would that be a mass of many atoms?’ Subhūti said: ‘Yes, Bhagavat, yes, Sugata, that would be a mass of many atoms. And why? Because, O Bhagavat, if it were a mass of many atoms, Bhagavat would not call it a mass of many atoms. And why? Because, what was preached as a mass of many atoms by the Tathāgata, that was preached as no-mass of atoms by the Tathāgata; and therefore it is called a mass of many atoms. And what was preached by the Tathāgata as the sphere of a million millions of worlds, that was preached by the Tathāgata as no-sphere of worlds; and therefore it is called the sphere of a million millions of worlds. And why?
Because, O Bhagavat, if there were a sphere of worlds, there would exist a belief in matter; and what was preached as a belief in matter by the Tathāgata, that was preached as no-belief by the Tathāgata; and therefore it is called a belief in matter.’ Bhagavat said: ‘And a belief in matter itself, O Subhūti, is unmentionable and inexpressible; it is neither a thing nor no-thing, and this is known by children and ignorant persons.’ (30)